India achieved independence six decades back due to relentless struggle of the freedom fighters against the mighty British. The freedom struggle then was led by the people with courage, dedication, sincerity, and honesty.Once india became independent crooks and criminals jumped von to the stage pushed the real statesman into backseat by occupying the front seats.Once entering into the areana they collected their likeminded people and converted the system of governance into a routine act of corruption. Now it is the common belief of the common man that nothing genune can be obtained from the governament without paying bribe. In the last six decades there are only two governaments i.e congress govt. under P.V. NARASIMHA RAO and BJPgovt. under A.B.VAJAPEYE rendered some quality work due to which we could achieve 8% GDP growth.It is really unfortunate to note that in spite of high growth 30% of the citizens struggle for two squere meals a day.The main reason for such a pathetic condition is that 90% of money spent on the name of the poor is either looted or wasted by the public servents.The entire money so looted by the politicians and public servents is entering into the real estate sector and stoch markets and into the economy making the lives of the poor so miserable that the poor were driven towards alcoholism and crime and ultimately causing social unrest.To-day our country's economy is so sound that the entire poverty can be eradicated in one go provided the money is spent on productive schemes such as integrated rural development scheme( gandhian economics) without allowing the element of corruption to creep in. This is possible only if the educated citizen shows some dedication.

:rolleyes:Dear friend how it s possible. What you say is general experience but the problem is people do not want to do any thing. Educated class do not go to vote or if goes does not vote with reason and logic. If we elect criminals on throwing some bites and crumbs towards us and with promise to do some thing for certain classes of person one cannot Chang any thing. In globalization and materialist world we have become just consumers with no culture and we have no concerned with civilised society.:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:Here is one article from my friend Suresh Parmar from Dewas [MP]which is submitted for the readers. View it. True Economics
Suresh M. Parmar


I always lament that India is a stupid land for almost all its problems are self-produced or self-inflicted – and hence can be removed if there is a genuine desire or sufficient will to do so. But from that it does not follow that stupidity is unique to India. No, in many ways it is a worldwide phenomenon – so much so that even the Nobel Prize is not untouched by it. The branch of human knowledge – the so-called science – of economics is one glaring example of the ubiquitous human stupidity.
There would have been nothing wrong if economics had remained another branch of human knowledge for knowledge requires only one thing – observation. If you observe anything – any object – with a view to learning about its behaviour, it gives rise to knowledge. The play of stupidity comes in when the ‘intelligent’ men all over the world – including the members of the Nobel Prize Committee – raise it to the status of science or seek to make it one.
What is science? Science is knowledge, no doubt, for it too arises from the observation of things. But there is more to it. It is predictable knowledge – otherwise it would lose all its practical value. Let us take physics. If an object is dropped from the height of one metre, we can predict in advance that it will reach the ground in 0.45 sec with a velocity of 4.4 metre per second. When Galileo dropped two objects – one heavy and the other light – from the top of the tower of Pisa, he had predicted in advance that both with reach the ground at the same time with the same velocity – contrary to the ‘general belief’ that heavy objects reach the ground more quickly and with greater velocity.
A characteristic of predictable knowledge is that it is backed by solid reasoning. In the case of Galileo, for instance, he had solid reasoning in his favour. For free fall of objects is governed solely by the gravity of earth and therefore mass of objects has nothing to do with the duration of fall or the velocity acquired.
One has no fight with economics when it declares that production is the result of four factors – land, labour, capital & entrepreneurship. It is an observed & observable fact – and hence brooks no argument. Or that a bank is an institution whose business is to collect money and then lend it. Or that a cheque is an instrument that orders the bank to pay a certain amount of money to the holder of the cheque.
But when we are ‘taught’ by the economists about say the
so-called ‘law of demand & supply’ – that if the demand of a thing is more than its supply, its price rises – we are shocked! By ‘we’ I mean the scientific logical thinkers – not the dumb majority that inhabit the world. When Ratan Tata brought out his car ‘Nano’ he said that it was first conceived four years ago and in the mean time the cost of things has risen. Therefore, he said, it would not be possible to hold down its price to Rs. one lakh for long. This is logical.
But one would like to know from the so-called economists, “What is the reason that the price of crude oil suddenly has shot up from $50 to $100 per barrel?” or “That the price of gold has suddenly shot up from Rs.6000 to Rs.11000 per ten grams and is still rising with every passing day?” Before proceeding further I would like to let it sink into the minds of the readers that these two have been taken as mere examples and that the actual number of such questions that could and must be asked of the so-called economists may be uncountable. Most of the economics deals with the worthless, lunatic answers of such questions only.
Has the cost of production of crude oil or that of gold shot up twofold suddenly? In 1968 or 1969 petrol sold at 80p per litre and the crude oil sold at $13 per barrel. Gold sold at Rs. 80 per ten grams. As soon the Arab-Israel war broke out in 1973, the price of crude oil shot up to $35 a barrel. Why? What was the reason? I dare all the economists of the worlds and their followers to answer this simple question. DID THE ARAB-ISRAEL WAR SUDDENLY INCREASE THE COST OF CRUDE OIL? No, there was no reason, absolutely no scientific logical reason for the price increase. IT WAS PURE BLACKMAIL, PURE LOOT – NOTHING ELSE. This blackmail, this loot is trotted out in the books of economics as the law of economics.
Here is an example from personal life. In Bhuj the plot of land (measuring 100 sq mt) that cost Rs.1000 in 1977 cost Rs.25000 in 1987 and Rs.300000 in 1997. (I don’t know the present situation.) What was the reason for the price increase? Did the cost of ‘producing’ land increase 25 times between 1977 & 1987 and 12 times between 1987 & 1997? Another example from personal life. A 15 kg tin of groundnut oil cost Rs.250 and a quintal of wheat cost Rs.175 to 200 till 1987. In 1988 or 1989 when I set out to buy groundnut oil & wheat, I was shocked to learn that wheat cost Rs.800 a quintal and a tin of groundnut oil cost Rs. 750! Had the cost of producing groundnut oil & wheat increased threefold or fourfold in a year or two?
Every year we are dished out such nonsense as, “Since there is less produce of mangoes this year, their prices will remain high.” The price of apples fluctuates between Rs.30 a kilo to Rs.100 a kilo – and the reason is either oversupply or undersupply. What is beyond my comprehension is that there is not a single intelligent person in the entire world to ask the simple question, “What has supply to do with the price of a thing?”
In March 1977 when the Janata party came to power at the Centre, sugar sold at Rs.10 a kg. As soon as Morarji Desai declared that there would no longer be any Government control over (the price of) sugar, it fell to Rs.2.50 a kilo! I still remember vividly not a single person asked the simple question, “Did the mere utterance of a few words by Morarji Desai reduce the cost of production of sugar to one fourth?”
And as for the macroeconomics of the Govt revenue and expenditure, the less said, the better, for to me it is nothing short of the pandemonium of a lunatic asylum. Not a single person asks the Govt, “What do you deliver that you are imposing so many taxes, duties and levies, and indulging in such an astronomical expenditure? Pray, WHAT DO YOU DELIVER?” No one asks the Govt, “When you cannot deliver on the two things for which you were created in the first place – that of defending the borders from the external aggression and protecting us from the internal ruffians – what right have you to impose another tax or indulge in another expenditure?” One cannot help the surge of tears in one’s eyes when one thinks of the astronomical amounts that the Govt loots from the innocent public in the name of maintaining innumerable departments and a whole army of personnel none of which has the use that even the excrement a person leaves in the toilet in the morning has.
In a word, then, except for a little logical part, almost the entire economics is pure hogwash. The economists want us to believe that like physics or chemistry economics is an external phenomenon governed by non-human laws. Nothing could be farther from truth. It is as clear as daylight that the fountainhead of almost the entire economics lies in the head & heart of man, in his diabolical nature, the main elements of which are: insatiable greed that can loot up the entire world and yet shamelessly crave for more, a sadistic pleasure in other people’s sufferings, self-aggrandisement at the cost of keeping others deprived, an intense selfishness that is dead to other people’s sufferings. These are the forces that dictate the ‘laws’ that fill the books of economics that the Nobel Prize Committee showers 10 million dollars on. The wise men of the world shed tears at this circus of lunacy. They wait for the time when the economists would portray economics as the play of the diabolical forces raging in the head and heart of man and the time when the economists & the Govts the world over would requisition the sages of ancient India to replace the diabolical forces with logic & reason and for a good measure with largeheartedness, compassion, altruism.
In the mean time it seems that stupidity is not confined to a single nation or people. It is inbuilt in the genes of human beings. That is the message that comes out of the classic dialogue between Yaksha & Yudhisthir in the Mahabharata. Asks the Yaksha, “What is the most amazing thing in the world?” Pat comes the answer from Yudhisthir, “Every day one sees people dying and being cremated before his own eyes and still those alive think that they will live on. What can be more amazing (i.e. stupid) than this?”

Governament is spending lakhs of crores on the name of poverty alleviation.In fact not even 10% of this amount is reaching the benefitiary.Hence poor must be helped directly by the governament along with NGO participation to identify the real poor.Subsidies and tax brakes given on agriculture are the root cause of blackmoney generation. Agriculture should be exempted from incometax provisions only for the real farmers.

The blackmoney genarated by the corporate sector can easily be controlled by reducing taxes and simplifying the procedures of day-to-day activities.The simplification of procedures keep a check on buerocratic redtapism.Once redtapism is controlled the cost of production reduces substantially making our products competetive in the international market, and help reducing unemployment in the country.This factor helps us compete with china in the manufactureing sector.

:rolleyes:Yes,you have coached right point. In India the procedural delays creates not only problems but it is the best source of corruption. In 1962 the Santhanam Committee had stated in India the procedure adopted for doing and getting work is so tedious that one cannot get the work done without giving bribe. The committee described the same as "speed money'. The politicians and the bureaucrats to make their importance felt make rules in such way that people are obliged to pay money. The corporates do business and if they pay as bribe money they also know how to purchase politicians and bureaucrats also. Presently there appears to be no rescue. Bear it. :rolleyes:

Lavish spending by the government is one reason for increase of black economy.How much saving the govt. can achieve in waste spending that much of black money can be reduced in the system. Every year the budget of every ministry is increased by 15% without considering the fact that the basic infrastructure in the government and service delivery mechanism is not capable of handling such a huge outlay causing wastage and misuse, subsequently aiding black economy.

:rolleyes:The budgetary system to increase the amount of allotment of 10 to 15 % is a part of the govt. scheme as the expenditure increases. The thing is wasting of money and all this for want of proper procedure as purchase of articles and other things by govt is about 50 to 60 percent costlier that private purchase. Sub standard goods and materials are also purchased by it. There are so many wholes in the policy that is why there is wastage of money. Above all we Indian are 100 p.c. corrupt. We don't fee' that India is ours.:rolleyes:

I happen to go thru Mr. Suresh Parmar's write up on economical issues. The comments are definitely appreciable. It is the agony of many. There are many things which many great economists have missed. The major problem is that each econmist has tried to over come some one else's study by criticizing the earlier one and then adding or diliting some elements. No one took efforts to change the paradigm of economics untill last say 10 years. One Engineer from Latur did this tric and has been working on economics with a very detailed study of humanity, problem issues currently faced by our country. Here are some excerpts from the same. (a) There is a definite difference between equity and equality. (b) It is essential that each person in the economy contributes some thing to economy (by way of tax of course) as per his / her ability and capacity to pay. (c) The problem of our economy is there are less tax payers than those who do not pay tax. (d) There are some principles / canons of taxation that even kautilya has advocated much much before adman smith first time tried to define economics. (Adam Smith has also advocated these principles. The principles are (1) Indirect tax should be lesser than direct tax (2) Tax collection system has to economical (3) The whole process of collection of taxation should be so very easy that even a layman should be able to understand just by reading or listening. (4) The system should be so elastic that at the time of crisis, a small change in tax should generate huge amount of money without feeling a pinch to human (5) The tax system should yield sufficient income to the government so that there is sufficiency and a good welfare scheme can be worked out. (6) There has to be certainty in the system. This means payable tax should be certain and not arbitrary. It means the tax payer should know in advance how much tax he has to pay, at what time and in what form. Certainty will stop exploitation. Certainty helps not only the tax payer but also government to plan much in advance.

Now the sad part is that at least in Indian taxation system (which is inherited from the British system with some flawfull corrections) we do not see any of these six cannons present. If we carry such a defective tax structure the problems are obvious and inevitable.

The second important problems that has been identified is in the manner in which the tax is collected. Why to give the system which is so much critical for the human life in the hands of people that is tax authorities. Well, the aim must have been to creat employment opportunities by introducing many many taxes followed by many many people collecting the taxes. However, what is the end result with such a noble cause behind?? Corruption, nothing else. (Therefore, the focus of all those who want to correct the system must be on the system and not on the people. People should come together to correct the system which is easier than trying to point out to government authorities). The best system would be to remove all HUMAN in the process of collection and let the tax collection be the responsibility of banks. Can you imagine what will be scenario with banks authorised to collect tax? That too only on cheque transactions. No chance to enter into any mal practice. Software would automaticall take care. It is proposed that let all the transaction above a notional value of say Rs.2000 to 3000 be trasacted by cheque only and through bank. This will benefit by way of (1) changing habit of people who do not operate through bank which is a great habit. The time we operate things through bank, our credibility stars getting established. Once the credibility is established, banks would not hesitate to offer loans. (2) bank transactions are the safest as when required they can be traced. (3) bank earns by way of commission on each transaction. (4) the tax collected is distributed on the same day to central, state and local government. So government gets revenue every day. (You know how much?? A study on the basis of this proposal shows that even Mumbai Corporation would earn revenue to the tune of Rs.11500 crs in one year only on the basis of bank transactions!!!.

One more part of the proposal is to curb the current currency denomination from Rs.1000 to Rs.50. Rs.1000 note denotes that we Indians transact more in cash. (Transaction in cash is not traceable. It can be for any fraudulent purpose or to it can be passed on to extrimist. Cash can be pickpocketed. Elderly people are fooled and the cash is picked up within no time. It is very easy to bribe Rs.1 lac with the help of Rs.1000 note. It is just a matter of carrying it in pocket. So easy!!). Once the notes above Rs.50/- are abolished, all the notes above this would come to bank for exchange and one cannot imagine what will happen to black money. It will just vanish.

This is what is reaserach. This is what is paradigm shift. This work really deserves some thing more than noble prize. One day this is going to happen all over the world. Probably the said proposal will be implemented by other country than India and then suppose US picks it up and stars introducing, then our great politicians would COPY the same. The proposal will change the life of man kind. It has a power to bring peace, prosparity by saring to be principled in life which we find it so much difficult today. For further information please visit www. arthakranti.org. It is a humble request to all to visit this site, interact, debate on the issues, spread it to known people, call us for presentations. Some one can pick up a thread for Ph D work. Once you start doing it, you will feel satisfied.

luv

sunil

:rolleyes:I have gone through and are OK. Can India do all these things. I am very much doubtful. Presently your vies are not relevant as the Indian economists are working on the system how to maintain the power by appeasing few classes of communities. They do not have any problem. Look to present budgets.and after effects. Both PM and FM are economists but foreign returned and have no basic idea for this nation's problems. :rolleyes:

We also had some apprehensions when we first heard of the proposal. Today we are confident that this will happen as we have seen lots of people getting into the steam. The only thing is that we do not use media as a prime marketing agency. We approach students, farmers, associations and layman through dialogs. Recently a CM of a state called the chairman for making their ministers aware of the proposal. This was a voluntary act by the CM. It's the way one convices the people. People definitely get convinced. Yes, there are apprehensions as people take some time to know that THIS IS DIFFERENT.

:rolleyes:Good awareness by the CM. Hope that CM will try to make people convince about the plans. Which TV channel is connected with the economics and development of India? Few are leg pulling, few dealt with share marketing and few are indulged in Third in Two.Nothing is going to happen in near future. At least for 20 years. Every thing is hum buck. :rolleyes:

The UPA need not have to bother about the need of black money for election expenses.They have devised a new method to pay to their vote bank from the government coffers making allocations in the union budget itself.

:rolleyes:We Indians are great DISHONEST AND TREACHEROUS and UNGRACEFUL persons. After grabbing that money we will others to grab through them also. This is our national character. :rolleyes:

Mr. Purshottam and Sunil, (sorry for picking on you guys, just happened to turn out that way..) I understand economics is far from perfect and doubt it will ever be. I even agree that its not a real science in terms of physics. But it's more like statistics or organic chemistry, where many things can happen, you try and determine which ones are more likely to happen and act accordingly. I know it doesnt work anywhere near perfection, but it is definately a work in progress and a step up from not having anything at all. As for Mr. Suresh who wrote that article, I dont think he understands the simple concept that if I have two apples and two people buying it, I cant sell it for as much as if I had 2 apples and 10 people trying to buy it. That is what economics is based on.

As for the corruption, there is only one way to battle it: Nationalism. Make people so proud of being Indian that a corrput government official enrages them and makes their blood boil, as it does to us. If India were a little better off economically, that wouldnt be a problem, but its hard to be a deshbhakt when you havent eaten in 3 days. So what needs to be done, once again, is for rich people to create oppurtunities for poor people(start business, give jobs). Once they can support themselves, they will see their folly and hate corrupt officials as much as we do. Once we get over the initial hump, our nation will rise once again to become the greatest one.

:rolleyes:Yes it is Rahul who has recently started giving advice to Prime Minister. He is the real economist and rest all are of no worth. Wait and watch how things goes. This is the way to push Rahul and pull other stalwarts. :rolleyes:

kevat,

it is definitely a great wish of the youth today to see India shining. Dr. kalam has given enough boost through his visionary work `India 2020`. It is worth to follow the guidelines in the same. Their organisation is definitely working hard to gain a momentum. I regularly visit schools and colleges for interactions with students and I clearly see that the youth today is not at all interested in relegions, casts etc. They are more interested in science and technology, getting into it early and the like. It is high time for many educated to come together, have open interactions with the youth, make teams and get into action. Attitude of the politician would change in due course of time, due to force from all the sides. The process seems to have started somewhere, may be in Aurangabad, a small but industrious district place in Maharashtra.

:rolleyes:Welcome Sunil ,your doing field work with youth is commendable and it is certainly in right direction. All the best wishes. What is needed is impact on their mind and perhaps it would not be so as the youth have impact of ultra modern fashion ,wine and corrupt practices to earn money which they feel , view and realise in the day to day activities, :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:Here is a email message from my email frien
Dear Alok,

I strongly believe you have a point. Farmers plights and pains are not new. With the cost of fertilisers, farm equipments and labour charges skyrocketing, and lack of proper irrigation system, the problems are going to further increase with every year. We are going to see further farmers suicides every year.

There another psychological factor to this. This waiver will create an expectation among farmers and banks that every year the loans are going to get waived. Even now, to get a farm loan from the government banks, farmers have to bribe the bank officers a substantial portion of the loan amount. With this new expectation, the officers will demand more bribe from them and farmers will never pay the loan back expecting a waiver.

Net result will be 1) Goverment will be forced to do this waiver every year 2) If it doesnt happen, farmers will end up paying the fines, additional interests etc since they will wait for the next budget to repay their loans.

As you rightly pointed out, Govt need to have a long term plan regarding agriculture which is the backborn of developing India.


ALOK PRATAP <royalyadav@yahoo. co.in> wrote:
Hi friend.....
How r u ?
Being a student of Commerce and Economics... ..I have many points about our annual budget for 2008. These may onloy be my personal view, even may not be practical and realistic, but I would surely like to discuss you. I don't know that what our leaders want from us?. Please let me be aware about your views regarding these problems...
Respected Finance Minister allowed the waiver of Rs 60,000 crores to the farmers,
1. Why Mr. Finance Minister near tried to build perfect structure of co-operative agriculture in India, I think that this sum is sufficient to draw a perfect set up for co-operative agriculture that could help each and every farmer of the country. But who cares ?
2. Is the corporate investment of this amount, not able to generate the employment for 60,000 people of the country?
But when they can make fool the people easily then what is the need of hard work to make plans and implement them ?
3. Is this amount was not sufficient to fund the policy of adjoining the rivers of the nation ? I estimate that this could be serve all farmers the irrigation facilities and protect them from flood to make their life more better than exempting the loans.
4. Is the amount is not much enough to set up an ultimate plan for structuring the high speed railways in the nation ? I can assert this when we will have a speedy way to travel and communication the farmers and general people will be automatically benefited generating higher and quick revenues for their product.

It's all for today.. I will discuss other things tomorrow please let me be aware of your views about my thoughts . We, the youth of India, will definitely make our beloved country a better place to live and the great land to get heaven after our death.
Bye
Regards,
Alok Yadav
royalyadav@yahoo. co.in

:rolleyes:

Wow good. I like the guy's ideas, specially about the railways connecting the nations. Its true, but most people fail to understand that. You should tell this friend of yours to join this forum and discuss his ideas/what to do about them.

:rolleyes:I would like to inform him. Since you,jogdeo and others are all well versed in the economics please also contact him.:rolleyes:

Alok has raised a very valuable point. I agree to the view of Kevat that Alok should interact on this blog with all of us. The waiver of loan is purely a politcal based decision. UPA govt has been trying to seal their responsibilities by presenting some thing like the waiver. During maharashtra election, the shivsena's agenda of `free power` to farmers was hijacked by NCP and congress on which they could won the votes. However, in reality it was not possible. This time also in Maharashtra shivsena is going very strong on the issue of loan waiver. This time center has come to rescue the maharastra government by introducing `waiver` with lot of flaws in the same. Same thing, as exactly pointed out by Alok, is going to happen about this waiver. Swaminathan Aiyer and Gurusharan Das have perfectly analysed how wrong decision has been taken by the finance minister and what would be its repurcations. (Editorial section of Sunday times of last week, probably). I also liked the last line of email of Alok showing a commitment for a national cause.

Media has hyped along with politicians by saying this budget as Historic one. This will be really historic one by way of developing a habit of taking loans and not repaying. Our people are smart enough to work a strategy on the same. That means it will be a history of paying back loans in India. Today it is farming, tommorw it can be other industry.. day after still other industry. Question is: Can we youngsters can really come together and stand against such decisions?? IF yes, how?? Let's work out some strategy on which we all agree. Interaction on this blog is one way, but not enough.

I completely agree Sunil. I would really like to get some work started on taking steps to improve NOW. We dont have much time, only 40-60 years. Considering the task at hand, we might not be able to get it done and we dont know if the next generation will have others like us. I would like to see the future secured even if the next generation isn't like us at all. Look at America, most of the current generation doesnt even know where Iraq is. Yet they've maganged to stay a superpower becuase of men such as Benjamin Franklin and Theodore and Franklin Roosevelt. We need to do the same thing and set up a self sustaining government.

The first thing we should do is start an organization which unites people like us who are very well educated and would like to do something about India's future. Through this organization, we should discuss and then vote to figure out the best way to approach our problems. What do you guys think?

:rolleyes:Now there is writ petition in the Apex court. The details are on the news papers. By claiming surcharges on different items and without getting through the Parliament the Maha Guru is doing all this things. If he does why the next Railway Minister should not do to get cheap popularity? It Isa a vicious circle and the President should interfere before judgment of the Supreme Courts come whether in favour or against any one. :rolleyes:

So he pardoned a 60,000 crore loan without even asking the parliament?? Also, what do you think the court will rule?

:rolleyes My reasoning is that the petition is prematured. The praposals are budgetary one and not voted for. Therefore the petiton does not disclose the cause of action.:rolleyes:

I am continuing with what I wrote earlier. How do we come together and do something to create an impact on what we do? as rightly said the next generation will be facing a great problem. I suggest to join arthakranti movement. You can just talk about it to start with and later we can meet at some place. We can definitely approach out close friends and relatives, teachers, corporate friends and the like. However, there has to be very concrete and consistent effort. Then only there is some meaning. Else, these interactions are OK.

:rolleyes:The easiest way to convert black money in white money is to allow the black money to become white and for that the govt has to say that open all black money and invest in educational and health project. Give guarantee that they will not be prosecuted on this count. If govt can waive rs.60,000 crorers for farmers why govt cannot waive taxes on black money by asking them to make open there black money. :rolleyes:

Sunil, understand how aarthkranti can be helpful, but it is in no way the solution to all our problems. It is only a solution to certain economic problems. I was suggesting that we start a group that address ALL problems and together decides how to deal with them.

Kevat,

I am open to any group which is committed for a human cause. The group can only be formed with long term commitments and agreeing on some principles. Right now what we are doing is `distance communication`. We even do not know each other well. We also need to find out what are we aiming at. Once we do this, it will be easier to carry on. Else, it will be only an entertainment. Just see how can we give a concrete share to your idea.

First, we need more than just three people who are genuinely interested. Then we can have our own website/forum where we discuss the matters at hand and what can be done. THEN we set up a meeting for everyone, whoever can come should come and meet each other and decide at the first meeting what our plan should be, when we should meet next, etc. Do you know how we can reach to others like us to join our cause?

:rolleyes:You are there at St.George's and here in India there are as many organisation to improve India's economy as the shrines are. We people are followers of dynasty and we do not believe in democracy as we do not like to go for voting. Most of the middle or lower class persons vote but not with any logic,reasoning or without any values but they are purchased by giving lolly pops in their hand through budgetary provisions. At least I have no faith in the present system of voting. :rolleyes:

kevat,

we need to get a theme. Meeting looks to be a distant dream. However, we can surely work on a particular theme to gain a momentum. What we can do is find out the best practices in terms of governance across the world and share them. Since I am grossely involved with arthakranti, my inclination will be towards the proposal, however, I will stick to what we will decide finally. Once we take a final decision, I would request my friends to blog on our posts. This is quite a draft idea. It may take some time to come to any conclusion.

I agree, it will take a long time. I do not understand what you mean by theme. Unlike aarthkranti, I want to start something which addresses ALL issues starting with the most important ones first. We need to address economic, infrastructure, corrpution, international relations, military and science developments. We need to know where we stand with these points today, where we want to be and what we should do to get there. Getting people we know to blog will be the first step only. The ultimate goal should be to start taking steps which we decide on. For example, if we decide we want India to increase military spending and upgrade weapons, we should draw out a plan to talk to those in charge of the budget, as well as top officials in the army and find a way to contact them. Then we should meet with them and the Indian media with a nicely drafted proposal. If it turns out we need money for some of these things, then we can fundraise along with accepting donations. Basically, we should start an ACTIVE group which is not related to any political party, does not want power, but only wants to change things for the better.

So again, where do you think we should start? Let me know, I'll use whatever time I have to set up a website if needed and elaborate on current problems and possible solutions as a start.

So again, where do you think we should start? Let me know, I'll use whatever time I have to set up a website if needed and elaborate on current problems and possible solutions as a start.

I think this website is as good as anyone. what you say make sense but before that we need to knit a community of likeminded people (thats exactly what hindustan movement is trying to do.) Once we have the right ppl who all would want to contribute actively rather than crib then we can take issues and research and make ammendments and suggest it to the ones in power. IF a group of ppl approch army to suggest what to buy or not is actually funny cause i dont think civilians know more about weapons than the army. Although for for other aspects RTI is a boon but i dont expect a governmnet like BSP's mayawati type of government to heed to the ppl or any movement. First step should be to awaken the masses and the ppl so that anyone like myawati is not able to refuse any sugestions.

Since we are willing to make a change, there will be a way out. Website is a good media. We can also think of our own publication in future to come. By `theme` I mean a subject like `India 2020 support group`. For example if we select this theme, the book of ex-president dr.kalam will be a guiding force for all of us. But again the task is not so easy. We need to be so much committed for what we are planning. I think if Kevat can do some thing about website, we can really work hard on it to start with. In the mean time we can work on our own vision (& goals for next say one year). Some one from us will be editor, some one coordinator and so on.

:rolleyes:Look to the waiver of loans of farmers. The other groups have also started for waiver of loans and see that this demand will become more strong by the time elections actually knocks door. The hick in consumer good is the first reflection. When we were children we used to hear that there is a hand of CIA when the govt used to be exposed. Again RSS was also being blamed whenever govt found that it could not justify its act. Now it is American depression in the share market which is to be blamed. Thus to show that Indian govt is managing the affairs very well but it is because of outside activities India is facing financial background. Even in 60 years we could not stand firm on our feet. :rolleyes:

Many a times we leave the track of the topic and we include many other topics. Like this blog is on black money, and we have deviated ourselves from this topic many a times. This will not result into a logical end or conversation. This is just my opinion.

This is regarding black economy only. The loan waiver scheme or rural employment scheme or sarvasiksha abhiyan or any other scheme, they serve the purpose of generating black money than reaching the target group.

:rolleyes:

essage received from e mail friend.

Important Extract from Message as Received:
ambuj <ambuj@....> wrote:

FYI:Another news... India silent on German Bank disclosure offer
Saturday May 10 2008 14:25 IST

Aditya Sinha

CHENNAI: NEARLY three months ago, Germany obtained a list of account holders at a bank in Liechtenstein, a tiny Alpine principality that is also a tax haven.

The Germans offered the names to any country that asked for it. Curiously, India, with a history of black money stashed abroad, has shown no interest in
the list; it still has not made a request for details.

On February 14, Deutsche Post CEO Klaus Zumwinkel was arrested in Berlin for Tax Evasion. His name was on a DVD that BND, Germany's intelligence agency,
bought from a former bank employee of the LTG Group, run by Liechtenstein' s ruling dynasty.

The disc had the names of 1,400 account holders of the LTG Group's Treuhand subsidiary. BND bought the list, dating from 2002, for Euros 4.2 million. Six
hundred of the names lived in Germany, with a possible tax evasion of around Euros 5 billion; Berlin launched 125 tax investigations.

On February 25, German finance ministry spokesman Thorsten Albig announced that the names and details of the other 800 account holders would be given to
their respective countries, at no extra cost.

All the countries had to do was ask for them. Finland, Norway and Sweden promptly asked. The USA, Australia, France, UK, Ireland, Italy, Canada, New Zealand
and Spain subsequently put in requests. The Americans are now investigating 100 potential tax evaders on that list. Independently, the British stumbled
onto information on 400 Italians with accounts at a
Liechtenstein bank, and leaked it to the media.

India, however, which has long tried to uncover details of bank accounts in Switzerland and St Kitts, has not made a request. It should be made by the finance
ministry through the ministry of external affairs, for it is something that concerns the Central Board of Direct Taxes, the Directorate of Enforcement
and the Central Bureau of Investigation.

Though the government is aware of the developments in Germany, till date, no request has gone, informed sources told this website's newspaper. Incidentally,
Liechtenstein' s Prince Hans-Adams II, the owner of the LTG group, has visited India, to a warm welcome by our political class.

Aditya Sinha (Email Address is withhold, but would be provided on request)


:rolleyes:

Message from friend:-

:rolleyes:a recent news says that the corrupt indian politicians had stashed
60,00,000 crores of rs in various banks in switzerland. what a shame.
majority of indians are without good food, protected drinking
water,toilets and a place to livein.when the people are gonig to rise
in revolt.our finance minister with his incredibly good looks and
innocence and a soothing voice wants the people to wait patiently so
that prices will come down. nobody seems to worry about the the
illgotton money which is deposited in swiss banks.how such a great
country which fought for its freedom so gallantly is taking this news
silently.whAthappen to the valour of the people.sickening jebamani
mohanraj:rolleyes:

Petrol consumption:rolleyes: email from my friend


THIS IS NOT THE 'DON'T BUY' PETROL FOR ONE DAY, BUT IT WILL SHOW YOU HOW WE CAN GET PETROL BACK DOWN TO Rs.40.00 PER Litre....hopefully

This was sent by a retired Coca Cola executive. It came from one of his engineer buddies who retired from Halliburton. It is been formulated by a YOUTH for Indians. If you are tired of the petrol prices going up AND they will continue to rise in the coming year, take time to read this PLEASE.

Phillip Hollsworth offered this good idea.
This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the 'don't buy petrol on a certain day' campaign!
It's worth your consideration. Join the resistance!! !!

I hear we are going to hit close to Rs.80 a litre by next summer and it might go higher!! Want Petrol prices to come down?

We need to take some intelligent, united action. The oil companies just laughed at that because they knew we wouldn't continue to 'hurt' ourselves by refusing to buy petrol.

It was more of an inconvenience to us than it was a problem for them.
BUT, whoever thought of this idea, has come up with a plan that can Really work. Please read on and join with us!

By now you're probably thinking PETROL priced at about Rs.40.00 is super cheap. Me too! It is currently Rs.56.00 for regular unleaded in my area.

Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a litre of petrol is CHEAP at Rs.50.00, we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace. . .not sellers.

With the price of petrol going up more each day, we consumers need to take action.

The only way we are going to see the price of fuel come down is if we hit someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their petrol/deisel! And, we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves.

How? Since we all rely on our vehicles either 2 wheeler or 4 wheeler, we can't just stop buying petrol or diesel.

But we CAN have an impact on fuel prices if we all act together to force a price war.

Here's the idea:



FOR THE REST OF THIS YEAR, {{DO NOT}} PURCHASE ANY PETROL FROM ,[[[ INDIAN OIL ]]] THE BASTARD WHO IS THE MAJOR FUEL DISTRIBUTOR IN INDIA, SELLING ONLY THE PREMIUM PETROL AND GIVING WORST SERVICES THAN OTHERS.


If they are not selling THEIR fuel, they will be FORCED to REDUCE their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to REDUCE THEIRS.

But to have an impact, we need to reach literally Crores of Indian Oil petrol buyers. It's really simple to do! Now, don't wimp out on me at this point...keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach Crores of people!!

I am sending this note to 40 people. If each of us send it to at least ten more (40 x 10 = 400) .. and those 400 send it to at least ten more (400 x 10 = 4,000)...and so on, by the time the message reaches the sixth group of people, we will have reached over FORTY LAKHS consumers.

If those 40 Lakhs get excited and pass this on to ten friends each, then 4 crore people will have been contacted!

If it goes one level further, you guessed it..... FORTY CRORE PEOPLE!!!

Again, all you have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all! U CAN ALSO PASS THIS MESSAGE ORALLY TO WHOM DON'T ACCESS EMAIL!!

(If you don't understand how we can reach 40 CRORE and all you have to do is send this to 10 people.... Well, let's face it, you just aren't a mathematician. But I am . so trust me on this one.

How long would all that take? If each of us sends this e-mail out to ten more people within one day of receipt, all in. I suggest that we not buy from Indian Oil UNTIL 40 CRORE people in India could conceivably be contacted within the next 8 days!!!

I'll bet you didn't think you and I had that much potential, did you!
Acting together we can make a difference.

If this makes sense to you, please pass this message o THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO BELOW THE Rs.40.00 RANGE AND KEEP THEM DOWN. THIS CAN REALLY WORK.

LET'S SHOW THE POWER OF PEOPLE NETWORK!!!!

JAIHIND!!!




:rolleyes:

Extract from news item on swiss bank black money ':rolleyes:is india poor?'

poor, who says Is India? Ask Swiss banks With personal account deposit bank of $1500 billion in foreign reserve which have been misappropriated, an amount 13 times larger than the country's foreign debt, one needs to rethink if India is a poor country?.
CJ: Ramesh Manghirmalani , 6 days ago Views:1643 Comments:5
DISHONEST INDUSTRIALISTS, scandalous politicians and corrupt IAS, IRS, IPS officers have deposited in foreign banks in their illegal personal accounts a sum of about $ 1500 billion, which have been misappropriated by them. This amount is about 13 times larger than the country’s foreign debt. With this amount 45 crore poor people can get Rs 1,00,000 each. This huge amount has been appropriated from the people of India by exploiting and betraying them.

Once this huge amount of black money and property comes back to India, the entire foreign debt can be repaid in 24 hours. After paying the entire foreign debt, we will have surplus amount, almost 12 times larger than the foreign debt. If this surplus amount is invested in earning interest, the amount of interest will be more than the annual budget of the Central government. So even if all the taxes are abolished, then also the Central government will be able to maintain the country very comfortably.

Some 80,000 people travel to Switzerland every year, of whom 25,000 travel very frequently. “Obviously, these people won’t be tourists. They must be travelling there for some other reason,” believes an official involved in tracking illegal money. And, clearly, he isn’t referring to the commerce ministry bureaucrats who’ve been flitting in and out of Geneva ever since the World Trade Organisation (WTO) negotiations went into a tailspin!

Just read the following details and note how these dishonest industrialists, scandalous politicians, corrupt officers, cricketers, film actors, illegal sex trade and protected wildlife operators, to name just a few, sucked this country’s wealth and prosperity. This may be the picture of deposits in Swiss banks only. What about other international banks?

Black money in Swiss banks -- Swiss Banking Association report, 2006 details bank deposits in the territory of Switzerland by nationals of following countries:

Top five

India---- $1456 billion
Russia---$ 470 billion
UK-------$390 billion
Ukraine- $100 billion
China-----$ 96 billion

Now do the maths - India with $1456 billion or $1.4 trillion has more money in Swiss banks than rest of the world combined. Public loot since 1947: Can we bring back our money? It is one of the biggest loots witnessed by mankind -- the loot of the Aam Aadmi (common man) since 1947, by his brethren occupying public office. It has been orchestrated by politicians, bureaucrats and some businessmen. The list is almost all-encompassing. No wonder, everyone in India loots with impunity and without any fear.

What is even more depressing in that this ill-gotten wealth of ours has been stashed away abroad into secret bank accounts located in some of the world’s best known tax havens. And to that extent the Indian economy has been stripped of its wealth. Ordinary Indians may not be exactly aware of how such secret accounts operate and what are the rules and regulations that go on to govern such tax havens. However, one may well be aware of ’Swiss bank accounts,’ the shorthand for murky dealings, secrecy and of course pilferage from developing countries into rich developed ones.

In fact, some finance experts and economists believe tax havens to be a conspiracy of the western world against the poor countries. By allowing the proliferation of tax havens in the twentieth century, the western world explicitly encourages the movement of scarce capital from the developing countries to the rich.

In March 2005, the Tax Justice Network (TJN) published a research finding demonstrating that $11.5 trillion of personal wealth was held offshore by rich individuals across the globe. The findings estimated that a large proportion of this wealth was managed from some 70 tax havens.

Further, augmenting these studies of TJN, Raymond Baker -- in his widely celebrated book titled ’Capitalism’s Achilles Heel: Dirty Money and How to Renew the Free Market System’ -- estimates that at least $5 trillion have been shifted out of poorer countries to the West since the mid-1970. It is further estimated by experts that one per cent of the world’s population holds more than 57 per cent
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of total global wealth, routing it invariably through these tax havens. How much of this is from India is anybody’s guess.

What is to be noted here is that most of the wealth of Indians parked in these tax havens is illegitimate money acquired through corrupt means. Naturally, the secrecy associated with the bank accounts in such places is central to the issue, not their low tax rates as the term ’tax havens’ suggests. Remember Bofors and how India could not trace the ultimate beneficiary of those transactions because of the secrecy associated with these bank accounts? IS THERE ANY ONE WHO WOULD SAVE INDIA ?God... No No No, even he can’t..........!!
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: It is humble request to go through Swiss bank black money, secret money and is India poor site and one will know what is the reality behind the India’s economy and why India is, is and is poor. Indian black money report says about $1500billion in foreign reserve that has been misappropriated an amount 13 times is larger than the country’s foreign debt, one needs to rethink is India a poor country.

The recent rate for saving the UPA government is 25 to 30 crorers. From where would such money come, if I say something it will certainly small capacity and tall talk because our Prime Minister and the Finance Ministers are renounced economists. Even then I would dare to submit some thing odd though general public may not directly enjoy the black money it self but can certainly dream about such money that may, In future come in their hands through developments in the country.

How it is possible let us look. India should officially open Jet Black Bank of India on the Swiss black money banking lines. It should be kept beyond the preview of judicial review and hence such law should be put on the Schedule 9 of the Constitution of India. If the law is challenged the expert advocates on Constitutional side should argue that the law cannot be reviewed as it is the policy matter! There after permit any one on the earth to have his account opened in that bank and the amount deposited will never be subject to any accountability. Their would be absolutely secrecy of such accounts and no one even the courts would not be allowed to exercise any jurisdiction under any article of the Constitution including Article 32 and 226-227.Hoe ever the government shall have right to use such money as interest free loan! If it is done the financial position of India will improve a lot. I hope any political party may come in power and in particular BSP or Congress comes to power these parties can with the help of their strong back ground of experience manage the affairs of the bank well though they may not be able to manage the affairs of the nation! It is well said that the experience counts! There is no other party that can learn by the experience of these parties. Let the black money [not the truth] prevail. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
Protect public money
Satyam deserves thanks for exposing the corporate world of India. The Wipro, and other corporate houses are also banned by UNO.
Corporate houses get money from the public through shares, debentures and bonds and like other schemes introduced by their skill and ideas. They pretend that public will be getting more interest and will be saving huge amount of taxes. People succumb to such publicity and their money is ultimately becomes bad debt. People do invest also because the services rendered by Post Office Saving Schemes are too poor and people do not get money easily in case of their need due to Babudom.
There is one scheme known as PPF [Public Provident Fund]. But the trouble is that the ceiling limit is 70,000 rupees per year where as the permissible limit for Standard Deductions under Income Tax Act is 1,00,000 rupees. To get such benefit the public is forced to deposit 30,000 in such corporate houses and ultimately the public is put to loss because of fraud played by them. Why government should not be liberal in increasing the ceiling limit equivalent to the standard deductions? The government should be generous to allow the public to deposit money in PPF without ceiling limit. Several times the government was requested to do so with reducing the interest rate but to no avail. It appears that the government is also not in need of money and therefore is reluctant to amend the rules. The PPF Board is also interested to invest this money with corporate sector and is also helping the sector to make the public money to become bad debt. All know it that UTI and LIC are also doing the same thing. In all cases the corporate sector has upper hand in this respect. Does it mean that the government has no need of money for development purposes? Is government so rich, which could waive agriculture loans of about 750 thousand crorer rupees and can give subsidy of like amount?
India should reconsider the whole fiscal policy radically to suit the general public and its money is safe in the hands of the government.

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Satyam really SatyamFrom Satyam to its anagram Maytas all have proved their veracity in the share markets. Congratulations Raju! Why alone you should be blamed. In India a poor cannot even dream to become rich. With a view to get rich without more efforts and in fewer investments he honestly deals in shares and is in all cases cheated. In every field and every walk of life in India it is Mafia that holds control over every thing and the politicians protect them. There may be no industry house that is not providing all undue facilities to all concerned persons for lodging-boarding conveyance and outing at companies cost. And in return these companies get benefit of crores of rupees by way of tax evasion. The politicians, political parties and bureaucrats take Chanda and bribe for them and provide corrupt facilities to these corporate sectors. Before Satyam was exposed what RBI, SEBI, Company affairs Ministry, Office of Registrar of Companies. Auditors and Chartered Accountants of the company and all other authorities were doing? Just enjoying the hospitality by company? Now they are saying that no one would be spared! Novel idea!
In India every thing can happen. CBI can exonerate Mayavati and Mulayam in crorers of rupees scams. The Apex court may scold CBI and a Patwari can be involved for accepting bribe of Rs. 200 only. Police can give different look to investigation of a crime, pathological forensic, serological, food analysis reports and like reports can be changed. DNA tests, mapping tests are now becoming scams in themselves, Qasab may not undergo such tests but the other Hindu seers may go through such tests in Malegaon case. It is India and one can easily and with full liberty do any thing as one wish.

In India this is not the only scam but there are and were series of share scams and series of dons in share markets. Years together it is said that terrorists are dominating the share markets but no heed is being paid to it. Through scams in share markets these terrorists and dons want to bring the financial conditions of India to dust. We have never seen government is working to prevent all this. The reason is apparent. Presently one corporate banking company also appears on line of being insolvent. No authority may take seriously till depositors are put to loss.
The truth is India is most corrupt country and the judicial system has been made ineffective which is the backbone of democracy and unfortunately it appears that it too may succumb to such temptations.
I am sure in my opinion among few big democratic countries India must be the most corrupt and its politicians most incompetent person except in corruption. My humble request would be the Art 1 of the Constitution of India should be suitably amended and the words ‘India that is Bharat’ should be deleted and instead of that the words ‘India that is leader of the scams’ should be added! Mera Bharat Mahan.:rolleyes: